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Beyond The Pale

Beyond the Pale is a subversively thoughtful exploration of God, faith, life and culture hosted by former pastors and missionaries Steve & Tammy Hackman. It's a podcast for that person who finds more fulfilment in the journey than in the destination and doesn't mind coloring outside the lines a bit! Join us each week as we travel on pilgrimage together. We'll ask questions, question answers, and open a bottle of wine with you as we do. (Not a particularly good wine mind you, just one Tammy says we can afford)
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Now displaying: 2017

Beyond the Pale is a subversively funny exploration of God, faith, church, and culture hosted by former pastors and missionaries Steve & Tammy Hackman. It's a podcast for that person who wants to know God but sometimes wonders why their favorite moment of a Sunday service is when it's finally over. Join us each week as we journey on pilgrimmage together. We'll ask questions, question answers, and open a bottle of wine with you as we do. (Not a particularly good wine mind you, just one Tammy says we can afford)

Dec 24, 2017

Steve & Tammy podcast from Hoi An Vietnam on where their faith journey has gone recently and how they are increasingly looking to living in "the now". When we spend our energy looking to the horizon we can overlook they people, needs, and even opportunities that are right in front of us.


Get ready to go Beyond the Pale with Steve & Tammy in Vietnam!

Show Notes:

4:46- Greetings from Vietnam

9:18- How our journey has changed and "living in the now"

14:55- Tammy shares on learning to judge others (and herself) less

24:20- Being freed from appeasing the "monster" God

Dec 19, 2017

Award winning author Paul Ellis talks to Steve & Tammy about his new book A.D. 70. Unlike the anxiety produced by many books on prophecy and the fear of being "left behind", AD 70 offers a hopeful and "good news" alternative to the "last days." Drawing on an in-depth study of the scripture alongside forgotten lessons from history Paul reinterprets the dark tales of vengeance and judgement through the lens of grace.


Get ready to go Beyond the Pale with Paul Ellis


Show Notes:


4:42 - (intro) Talking pilgrimage walks with Paul

10:24- Paul explains why the year AD 70 was so important

17:41- Why a Grace author writes a book on the "End Times"

22:34- Talking the Rapture and the Return of Christ

32:08- The "wrath" of God probably ain't what you think.

Dec 4, 2017

Paul Ellis has impacted and inspired tens of thousands across the world with the message of God's unconditional love for them through his award winning books as well as his Escape to Reality blog. On today's episode Paul shares with Steve & Tammy the journey he has walked and the insights into God and Life he has learned along the way.

Get ready to go Beyond the Pale with Paul Ellis!

Show Notes:

4:50- (Intro) Walking across Europe & Tammy’s new dogs

8:17- Paul’s early life

12:50- Paul’s story arriving in Hong Kong

15:44- From university professor to pastor

19:47- Introduced to Grace

28:54- Why Christians mix Jesus & The Law

40:11- Escape to Reality

47:00- Why some Christians struggle with a God without conditions

Nov 20, 2017

Tre Cates shares how he initially became involved with, and then went on to be the Chief Operations officer for, the Savory Institute; a group that is literally saving the planet! Tre then explains how the holistic management and regenerative practices he has seen implemented through the Savory Institute has helped him understand how those same practices could be applied in business and work environments around the globe.

Get ready to go Beyond the Pale with Tre Cates!

Show Index:

2:10 (into) Tammy talks about a new love of philosophy and asking questions

12:50- How Tre got involved with the Savory Institute and and what they do there

30:36- How a system seeking short term benefits have brought long term consequences

39:22- How a "regenerative" system needs to replace an "industrial" system

51:19- Unleashing the full potential of people

Nov 7, 2017

Steve sits down with Tre Cates to talk about the journey he has been on for the last twenty years. Tre has gone from being church planter to a successful entrepreneur of a tech company, and ultimately to becoming Chief Operating officer for the Savory Institute, which, if you are NOT one of the over 4 million people who have watched Allan Savory’s 2013 TED Talk, the Savory Institute is an organisation, that is saving the planet….literally!

Tre has traveled to 6 continents and worked in 35 different countries for the Savory Institute consulting with organisations and government officials on applying regenerative holistic practices to land management that is making Earth that had been reduced to desert- green and arable again.

Tre sat down with me to share the journey of how he got to where he is now, as well as how the regenerative applications and practices they are learning to apply to the Earth can be applied to churches, businesses, governments and humanity as a whole….pretty much wherever 2 or more are gathered….well, you get the point Get ready to go Beyond the Pale with Tre Cates.

Show Notes:
2:40 (Intro) Tammy shares about how the family used Steve’s trip away to sneak two new puppies into the house

18:56: Tre shares his passion of seeing people’s lives transformed into who they were created to be

20:33: Tre questions “the system” from early on

27:50: Why church models are not sustainable

29:26: Embracing a decentralised “non-event” based community

42:42: Tre shares how his journey led him to ask “What was I put here for and how can I fulfill that purpose”

46:19 “Beautiful examples of creation in it’s complexity”

48:52: “We can have community, we can have real impact, we can serve people and you don’t need an organisation to do that”

Oct 22, 2017

Steve & Tammy continue their talk with Brian Zahnd as they unpack his new book "Sinners in the Hands of a Loving God." Brian shares with us pilgrims why Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross was NOT a payment to God and how thinking it is has been skewing Christians view of the Father for years.

From there we move to chatting about hell and while Jesus did speak a fair bit about hell, Brian suggests what he was referring to was not an after life torture chamber but rather the consequences (aka, the hell) we unleash on ourselves and the world around us when we fail to walk in the Way of Love Christ came to demonstrate

We wrap our time with Brian as he shares a bit on what the Book of Revelation is really trying to tell us…and it wasn’t what we were told in church growing up

Get ready to go beyond the pale with Brian Zahnd

Show Index
2:10 (Intro) Tammy shares how fear had crept into her faith

16:50 What if Jesus spoke to the U.S. Congress?

24:16 Was Jesus’ death a payment to God for our sins?

29:44 What is Hell?

31:50 “If you can’t preach the gospel without mentioning heaven or hell, you can’t preach the gospel”

41:36 What the Book of Revelation is trying to tell us

Oct 14, 2017

Brian Zahnd returns to Beyond the Pale to discuss his new book "Sinners in the Hands of a Loving God". As one of the leading voices in the church today Brian takes aim at Christian's endorsement of fear, violence, and nationalism reminding us that our God looks like Jesus and ONLY Jesus. Get ready to go Beyond the Pale with Brian Zahnd.

Show Index
2:06 (Intro) Steve & Tammy discuss the effect “fear” theology has had on their faith

14:48 Brian shares an update from their Camino pilgrimage in Spain a year out

28:54 How the Jesus Movement generation became the political “Christian Right”

34:00 Brian shares how he “woke up” into a new understanding in Christ

39:20 How the “fear” theology of Jack Chick cartoon tracts still impact the evangelical church today

41:45 When Christians see Jesus not as a teacher but simply a cog in God’s atonement process

Sep 24, 2017

We continue our discussion with Rebekah Pine and hear more of her journey as a young Christian living in Egypt and Jordan. Now a wife and mother of three young children Rebekah goes on to explain how her work in the Middle-East isn't over as she returns to Jordan to work with refugees fleeing the Syrian civil war.


Show Index:

1:57 (Intro) Steve & Tammy discuss “The Shack”

13:19 Rebekah shares what it was like being a Christian with a Muslim roommate

26:24 Life as a Syrian refugee in Jordan today

39:57 Having the support of family and church to return to Jordan

43:42 Rebekah shares some last thoughts and hope for the refugee situation in the middle-east

Sep 10, 2017

Rebekah Pine shares her journey of being a student of Middle East studies living in Egypt and Jordan and how years later, now a wife and mother of three children, feels a draw by God to return to Jordan to help alleviate the suffering of refugees fleeing from the Syrian civil war. Along the way Rebekah shares how her own faith was enriched and deepened as she navigated a Muslim world.

Show Notes:


2:30- (Intro) Steve & Tammy muse about Shakespeare

17:19- Rebekah shares how she first got interested in the Middle East

22:57- Moving to Egypt

26:10- Encountering the Muslim faith for the first time

42:10 - Having a humility in our understanding of God

43:14- Dialogue with Muslim friends

47:24- Rebekah shares anecdotes of being a female Hong Kong Chinese in the Middle East

50:52- Moving to Jordan

Sep 3, 2017

Part two of our talk with journalist and science writer Nury Vittachi continues to explore the tension between faith and science. Along the way Nury shares about the power of forgiveness as well as some of the positive attributes faith in general, and Christianity specifically, bring to the world around us. 
Show Notes:

1:33 (Intro) Steve and Tammy discuss cynicism towards Christianity and their own struggles at times with it

10:39 Nury shares how his interest in science first began

13:00 Creating a space beyond “Atheist vs. Theist”

27:58 Why young people are leaving church

35:39 Christianity and why its what's on the inside that counts

Aug 26, 2017

Journalist, author, and science writer Nury Vittachi joins Steve & Tammy to discuss the faith / science divide and shares with them how he navigates between those two worlds. Along the way Nury shares some childhood memories with famed author Arthur C. Clarke, whether the universe is indeed "conscience", and explains how the building blocks for reality is made up of ideas.

Join us as we travel Beyond the Pale with Nury Vittachi!

Show Notes:

1:54- Intro Steve and Tammy discuss a Facebook post on “worship”

16:38- Nury shares his background

19:50- “Materialist” vs. Quantum Physics

23:28- Can science be “mystical”?

34:40- Asimov, Sagan, and religion

37:01- Nury shares personal stories with Arthur C. Clarke

47:42- The moment God did “something”

Aug 20, 2017

This week we continue our talk with long time youth pastor Rich Kifer. Rich shares some of the wisdom he has learned, sometimes the hard way, as his spiritual journey has taken a number of twists and turns through the years. Along the way we discuss some of the litmus tests Christians tend to judge orthodox purity, the state of Christian and faith based movies, as well as advice Rich has for young people who feel they have a “call to ministry”

Get ready to go Beyond the Pale with Rich Kifer
Show Notes:

1:31 Intro- Steve & Tammy discuss Chinese Sichuan food and American politics

19:58- Discussing “Christian Movies”

29:36- Rethinking “salvation”

33:41- Turning “Good News” into “Terrible News”

40:51- Why do we “obey” Christ?

1:03:54- Advice for young people going into ministry

Aug 12, 2017

Long time youth pastor Rich Kifer has seen a lot of changes in Christianity during his years of ministry.  In today's episode Rich shares with Steve his journey which has caused him to reevaluate some aspects of his belief that has ultimately led to a better life and a better faith  Journey with us Beyond the Pale with Rich Kifer

Show Index

1:45- Steve & Tammy discuss Robe Bell's new book "What is the Bible"?

12:40- Rich shares how "not" knowing is ok

22:14- Rock and Roll ain't Christian

31:19- Why the next generation is apathetic to faith

43:39- Running a Christian Halloween "Haunted House"

52:28- Anger at what the church is doing to the next generation  

Jul 31, 2017

Sceptic David Young, who has been a friend to this podcast and frequent guest, tragically passed away this past April after a months long battle with ALS.  Steve had the opportunity for a final conversation with David at his home, sitting on his balcony, covering a range of topics including politics, movies, living life with a terminal illness, and why he refuses to give potential employers his CV.  Journey with us as we pilgrimage Beyond the Pale one last time with David Young.  Enjoy!

Jul 24, 2017

For many Americans, nationalism and patriotism are as much a part of their Christianity as any teaching of Christ.  But does God see America as "exceptional" in the same way Americans do?  Which flag do we really fly higher?  When does our allegiance to earthly countries put us at odds with God's Country.  Former pastor Giles Parker explores these questions with Steve & Tammy on this weeks episode.

Show Index

13:14- Road to Emmaus 

24:25- Erasing Boundaries

27:00- "I love America...but..."

36:21- Using Jesus for political agendas

51:20- Who is in God's Kingdom?

Jul 16, 2017

Giles Parker returns to the show to help us wrestle with the tension of reconciling belief with experiences.  What happens when they don't line up?  Have we replaced critical thinking with learning to handle and dismiss the ideas we don't want to entertain?  Join us with Giles as we head out Beyond the Pale.

Jul 4, 2017

In Part 2 of our discussion with C. Allen Ries, Allen discusses the idea of Biblical inerrancy and how Christians may be better equipped viewing the Bible through a more progressive lens.  Along the way Allen shares how he has replaced "knowing" with "seeking" and how we would all be better off learning to view others through the eyes of God

Show Index

9:45- Examining Biblical inerrancy

20:46- Allen shares why he still believes in God

24:06- "Seeking" vs "Knowing"

27:12- Are Christian Creeds exclusive?

33:45- Seeing others through the "Imago Dei" (Image of God)

Jun 25, 2017

C. Allen Ries is a Christian music minister who shares his story coming to terms with a sexual orientation at odds with the faith he grew up with.  Allen's initial struggles as well as the peace he ultimately finds is sure to be an inspiration for you on your journey.  Along the way Allen also shares how as a "white guy" he found himself working primarily in African - American churches.

Show Index

9:58- Allen & Steve share their shared church history

13:03- "White guy" in a "Black church"

23:12- First cracks in the "belief" wall emerge

28:26- A painful divorce leads to more questions

31:30- "wrestling" with sexual orientation

36:04- Allen finds peace with God and himself

Jun 10, 2017

Filmmaker Mitch Birks & resident Beyond the Pale "Geek Corespondent" Martin Daniel join Steve to discuss and review the new film Wonder Woman.  Along the way they detour into the recent X-Men movie Logan before they explore the themes of God, religion, ice cream, and existential crisis found in Wonder Woman. 

Jun 5, 2017

Part 2 of our conversation with Cornel and Rensia Marais.  Hear them share what it is like to test their belief system and question the very premises they had arranged their lives around.

Show Index

12:35- Experiencing rejection when you question

20:51- Taking a "break" from God

29:25- A faith healer questions faith healing

43:36- Renisa shares her journey into doubt and discovery

May 29, 2017

Former "grace preacher" Cornel Marais along with his wife Rensia share with Steve & Tammy their journey into Christian ministry...and back out again.  With both honesty and humour Cornel & Rensia share their ups and downs as they attempt to figure out God, church, and life...

Show Index

9:40- Church 3 times a week???

14:06- Faith Healing Days

26:34- In the Grace Camp

31:04- "Entering the Rabbit Hole"

37:15- Pagan Christianity?

40:47- Closing the ministry 

May 16, 2017

A second live update from Spain as Steve & Tammy journey on the 500 mile pilgrimage, the Camino de Santiago!

Apr 28, 2017

Steve & Tammy give a short update of their month long pilgrimage across Spain on the Camino de Santiago.  Included is their exhausting first day as well as catching up with some Camino friends from Ireland that leads to an outdoor Irish sing-a-long.

Apr 20, 2017

Steve continues his interview with Ojo Taylor from the punk band Undercover.  Along the way they explore more of Ojo's experiences coming out of the Christian faith while navigating the legacy of having been a voice and catalyst for people's faith within Christianity.

Show Notes

17:05- Fans discover Ojo has left the faith

22:20- Applying reason and logic to life

32:46- Is everyone who loves born of God?

47:26- Ojo on "belief systems"

Apr 8, 2017

Ojo Taylor, bassist, keyboardist, and vocalist for the renown Christian punk band "Undercover" shares with Steve the journey he has travelled from being a voice within Christianity to the chance encounter that forced him to question, and ultimately abandon, his faith.  Along the way Steve suggests he has, perhaps, become more "Christ-like" in the process.

Show Index:

10:15- A Catholic Childhood

18:47- "Undercover" begins

28:47- More Christian as an "Atheist"?

30:00- Christian "tribalism"

49:02- The encounter that changed everything

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