Beyond The Pale

Beyond the Pale is a subversively thoughtful exploration of God, faith, life and culture hosted by former pastors and missionaries Steve & Tammy Hackman. It's a podcast for that person who finds more fulfilment in the journey than in the destination and doesn't mind coloring outside the lines a bit! Join us each week as we travel on pilgrimage together. We'll ask questions, question answers, and open a bottle of wine with you as we do. (Not a particularly good wine mind you, just one Tammy says we can afford)
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Now displaying: 2019

Beyond the Pale is a subversively funny exploration of God, faith, church, and culture hosted by former pastors and missionaries Steve & Tammy Hackman. It's a podcast for that person who wants to know God but sometimes wonders why their favorite moment of a Sunday service is when it's finally over. Join us each week as we journey on pilgrimmage together. We'll ask questions, question answers, and open a bottle of wine with you as we do. (Not a particularly good wine mind you, just one Tammy says we can afford)

Dec 24, 2019

In this special holiday bonus episode of Beyond the Pale Steve journeys to the land of Israel and interviews some of his International travel companions about highlight experiences from their time in the Holy Land.

Go Beyond the Pale in Israel!

Episode Index:

00:17- Steve (USA)

6:46- Danny (Israel)

15:01- Ryan (UK)

19:30- Christina (UK)

25:19- Georgina (New Zealand)

27: 58- Kaze (Hong Kong)


Dec 15, 2019

In this episode we catch up with Ojo Taylor, formerly of the Christian punk band Undercover. Join us as we discuss pretty much everything from sin and ethics, to whether America can still be the bulwark of stability it has been in the past. Along the way Ojo questions whether Christians should be promoting a God that requires a blood sacrifice in order to forgive....and other hot button topics.

Go Beyond the Pale with Ojo Taylor!

Episode Index:

1:13- “(Intro) Steve & Tammy discuss how to love people radically even when its hard

21:47- Talk with Ojo Taylor begins

22:22- When your country goes off the rails

32:28- How Ojo’s friends have reacted to his “de-conversion”

37:06- Evolving beyond the “Volcano god”

40:01- Should we fear or embrace “secularisation?”

53: 30- Ethics & Sin

1:07:19- Some hope for America

1:16:32- When Christian musicians lose their prophetic voice

Nov 25, 2019

Educator and Bible teacher Jonathan Mellen shares how adversity has shaped his attitude and approach to life. Along the way he shares his story of being a "missionary kid" whose Christian faith now continues to grow in ways he hadn't expected

Go Beyond the Pale with Jonathan Mellen!

Episode Index:

1:03- (Intro) Steve & Tammy discuss Rob Bell, why Jesus wants to save Christians, and how to see the whole human race as family

21:10- Conversation with Jonathan begins

24:28- How Jonathan first came to Hong Kong

43:04 - How our faith matures

47:20 - Authenticity in Christianity

50:01 - Suffering and Glory

58:56- What is the church for?

Nov 5, 2019

Author, teacher, and monastery preacher Brad Jersak joins us to discuss his new book and how Christianity can recapture a more "Christ-like" identity. Along the way Brad shares his own journey and the struggles that have shaped his understanding that God is always loving and on our side.

Go Beyond the Pale with Brad Jersak!

Episode Index:

1:05 - (Intro) Steve and Tammy discuss faith, weight loss, and the Rugby World Cup

18:08- Brad Jersak shares his story

28:19- Bad atonement theory is not the Gospel

36:49- Brad’s dark night of the soul

43:07- Learning from people rather than “targeting” them

46:34- Discussing Brad’s new book “A More Christ-like Way”

48:47- “Christians” vs. “Christ-followers”

57:08- Brad shares with Tammy some steps to help her develop a contemplative faith without jettisoning the Holy Spirit

1:06:17 Brad contemplates walking the Camino de Santiago

1:07:22- A more Christ-like Way is inclusive

Oct 13, 2019

Beyond the Pale celebrates it's 100th episode by sharing the journey of David Hayward aka "the Naked Pastor". David is a former pastor turned cartoonist whose satire and critique of Christian culture has helped many Christians around the world re-think what following Jesus might actually look like. Along the way David shares his own story that we know will inspire you on yours.

Go Beyond the Pale with David Hayward!

Episode Index:

1:04- Intro with Steve and Tammy on the 100th episode

16:40- Conversation with David begins

21:16- David's journey

35:30- Exploring beyond the church's "invisible line"

49:30- Developing spiritual health when "deconstructing"

54:16- The Church still has so much to give

Sep 22, 2019

Australian Brett Moore is an International lawyer who shares his journey of being involved with the Christian Charismatic movement, leaving the legal world for a time to attend Fuller Seminary, and eventually finding his faith land in the Episcopal (Anglican) Church. Along the way Brett opens up about his own experiences of being a victim as a young boy in the sex abuse scandals rocking the Church recently.
Go Beyond the Pale with Brett Moore

Episode Index:

1:00 - (Intro) Steve and Tammy answer a listener’s questions

24:48 - Conversation with Brett begins

30:28 - More flexible theologically getting older

38:10 - Entering and (mostly) leaving Charismatic Christianity

54:40- Good and Bad ways of relating to God

1:14:05 - Church Life in '90s Hong Kong 

1:31:20 - Trying to balance Bible scripture and experience

1:53:25 - Brett opens up about his own experiences being abused as a child in the church

Sep 7, 2019

Emily Eldridge is an International artist whose murals and illustration work have taken her to places as far away as Hong Kong, Barcelona, and Berlin. She shares with Steve & Tammy some of the struggles as well as the joy that has come from following her artistic passion. Along the way Emily discusses her faith and how that has shaped her on the journey.

Get ready to go Beyond the Pale with Emily Eldridge!

Aug 26, 2019

In Part 2 of our talk pastor and author Derek Vreeland discusses what it means to "Practice Resurrection", how his own faith has matured over the years, and then gives some advice to Christians who are deconstructing their beliefs. Along the way Derek shares three books that has helped shape his faith on the journey!

Get Ready to Go Beyond the Pale with Derek Vreeland!

Episode Index:

1:20 (Intro) Steve & Tammy discuss podcasts, Hong Kong, and CBD oil

14:48: What it means to “Practice Resurrection”

20:48: Untangling the “knots” of Reformed Theology

24:54: Faith turning from “water” to “wine”

32:30: Advice for “deconstructing” Christians

43:20: 3 books and authors who have shaped Derek Vreeland

Aug 7, 2019

Pastor Derek Vreeland joins us to discuss his new book "By the Way" where he unpacks the idea of discipleship and shares some things he's learned on his journey that could help you "Follow Jesus"

Go Beyond the Pale with Derek Vreeland!

Episode Index:

1:21 - (Intro) Steve & Tammy share a bit on the Old Testament and how to navigate it

15:49 - Interview with Derek begins

21:26- Derek’s journey

29:46 - Bringing Critical thinking and experience together

34:52 - Charismatic experience and meeting Brian Zahnd

46:40- The draw of liturgy on charismatics and evangelicals

49: 40- Forming discipleship habits

53:14 - Forming prayer habits

Jul 21, 2019

What happens when patriotism runs amok? When it goes from something good and positive into something twisted and a little weird. My brother Andrew Hackman explains "fetish" patriotism and why its not helping a world that could use a little help right now.

Go Beyond the Pale with Andrew Hackman!

Episode Index:

1:48: (Intro) Tammy’s Birthday at our favorite restaurant

18:28 - (Interview Begins) What is Fetish Patriotism?

24:00 - “Loving your country like an adult and not a 4 yr old”

31:02 - The problem with Christian Nationalism

44:12 - Combating Tribalism

48:48 - Not being “offended” is good for your health

Jul 11, 2019

My brother Andrew returns to the show to discuss a number of topics including social media, faith, and how "loving your enemy" works even if you don't believe in God.  Along the way we'll also talk about how to engage those weird, uncomfortable Bible bits.

Get Ready to Go Beyond the Pale with Andrew Hackman!

Episode index:

2:05 (Intro) Steve and Tammy discuss the impact of social media

20:20 Interview begins

25:17 “I’m an Atheist”

30:40 Engaging with people on Facebook

38:00: Ignoring those uncomfortable Bible bits

48:29: Thinking and Overthinking

1:10:48 A faith without agenda

Jul 1, 2019

Tony Bottagaro is an award winning playwright, author, filmmaker, and speaker who serves as Special Advisor on National and International Affairs to the Chamber of the Americas. Tony shares with Steve & Tammy how the message of God's Love has shaped his journey and given him the opportunity to address the United Nations, officials at the Pentagon, and even have an audience with the Pope.

Go Beyond the Pale with Tony Bottagaro!

Show Index:

1:36 (Intro) Steve & Tammy share a live report from the Philippines

12:23- Interview with Tony begins

15:13- Planting a Seed of Love

25:55- Meeting the Pope

29:59- Pushing people to “convert” just pushes people away

37:20- Tony and Steve share anecdotes about their friendship

46:47- The power of an act of kindness

52:12- Faith communities also need to hear the message of God’s love

Jun 12, 2019

In Part 2 of our interview, Kristian Holmes shares his ongoing journey as he and his wife forge a new path of relationship with God outside the normal church structures. Along the way we discuss the Holy Spirit, embracing Mystery, and why you can't "un-see" what you have seen.
Go Beyond the Pale with Kristian Holmes!

Episode Index:

1:07 (Intro) Steve & Tammy talk about how Richard Rohr’s “The Universal Christ”

22:18: Interview begins- Experiences with God

29:26- “Same issues, different churches”

36:23- Forging a new way of doing Life

56:26- You can’t “unsee” once you have seen

Jun 2, 2019

Kristian Holmes shares of his journey that took him out of a trajectory towards senior church leadership. When an understanding of what Christ had done unraveled his grace vs. law paradigm, he and his wife had no choice but to blaze a new trail outside the church structure and the security, financial stability, and identity it had provided. Along the way they discover a God way bigger than they originally known.

Go Beyond the Pale with Kristian Holmes!

Show Notes:
2:15 (Intro) Steve & Tammy talk about what prayer looks like for them

27:27: Talking the Camino de Santiago

35:48: Kristian describes his spiritual journey

39:19: Introduced to “Universalism”

41:08: Kristian becomes “Born Again”…again

51:45: …but Fundamentalism doesn’t like to let go

58:50: How to connect with God outside of the church structure

May 7, 2019

Brian Zahnd returns to share with us topics from his new book Postcards from Babylon: The Church in American Exile. Along the way Brian discusses why so many American Christians have traded "the Way of Jesus" for religious nationalism as well as explaining to Tammy what "the Satan" actually is.

Go Beyond the Pale with Brian Zahnd!

Show Notes:

1:42: (Intro) Steve & Tammy discuss the sudden passing of Rachel Held Evans

16:00: Why the Jesus Movement Generation has embraced religious nationalism

20:44 Playing the “Jesus Card” in refuting religious nationalism

25:02 Liberating Jesus from “the Red, White, and Blue”

29:47 Front lines of Christianity: San Francisco or the Bible Belt?

36:36 What is “the Satan”?

Apr 19, 2019

Brian and Peri Zahnd return to share with us their pilgrimage on the Camino Portuguese; the 160 mile adventure running through Portugal and ending at the cathedral in Santiago de Compostela in Spain.

Along the way they share stories we hope will inspire you to perhaps walk your own Camino one day.

Go Beyond the Pale with Brian & Peri Zahnd!

Mar 30, 2019

Efren Gonzalez is a travel vlogger and filmmaker whose Youtube videos chronicling his journeys have been an inspiration and valuable resource for those planning their own pilgrimage. On today's episode Efren shares some "tales from the trail" including his most recent adventure across Europe on the Via Francigena.

Go Beyond the Pale with Efren Gonzalez!

Mar 4, 2019

Author, blogger, and podcast host Keith Giles shares a journey that led him away from the traditional church pulpit to planting a house church that gave away ALL money collected to the poor. No salaries, no building, not even for the Sunday morning coffee and donuts. Along the way Keith discusses Biblical inerrancy, Hell, and how he became co-host of the popular podcast Heretic Happy Hour.
Go Beyond the Pale with Keith Giles!

Show Index:

2:50 (Intro) Tammy has a bit of a rant

13:00 How Keith and his wife met

15:35 Keith’s spiritual journey begins

24:11 The Rapture and fear of being “Left Behind”

31:27 Orthodoxy vs orthopraxy

35:45: When a pastor starts to question

43:27: Beyond the “Emergent Church”

49:00: Making sense of the Bible

59:40: Starting a House Church

1:03:00: Heretic Happy Hour


Feb 21, 2019

Tammy and I traveled to England to attend the "Progressing Church" weekend as members of the online community gathered at St Luke’s Anglican in the city of Bournemouth. Over meals, music, poetry and talks we encouraged one another in our faith in Christ. Rob Grayson, one of the admins for "Progressing Church" sits down to unpack the weekend with us.
Along the way we discuss how a Christian might engage in politics, deconstructing faith, spiritual cliches, and navigating social media in a civil way.
Journey Beyond the Pale with Rob Grayson!

Feb 10, 2019

Maybe its because we are both Americans but in Pt 2 of our talk with Jon Bryant we discuss the polarising intersection of faith and politics in America today and whether Jesus can provide a "third way" to navigate between Democrat, Republican, Liberal, or Conservative.

Get Ready to Go Beyond the Pale with Jon Bryant!

Show Index:

1:30: Intro with Steve & Tammy

20:28 Our decisions can create a lot of damage

25:25: Racism under the surface

35:18 Living up to America’s ideals

39:34 Having grace for those we disagree with

57:56 Jon shares with Tammy “Your journey isn’t over”

Feb 7, 2019

Jon Bryant shares his journey from an early Christian faith wrapped up in fundamentalism towards a walk with God having a lot more grace for himself and others. Along the way Jon discusses Christian schools, rugby, and why the Bible isn't always age appropriate.

Get Ready to Go Beyond the Pale with Jon Bryant!

Jan 15, 2019

In Part 2 of our talk with lawyer, educator, and filmmaker Marylou Verberne we talk about the challenges facing the church today in face of a renewed expectation of transparency and accountability. Does the church need a #metoo movement to stem chronic abuse and manipulation?

Get Ready to Go Beyond the Pale with Marylou Verberne!

Jan 2, 2019

Marylou Verberne is in many ways a Renaissance woman. She is skilled in just so many fields including law, education, and the dramatic arts including creating powerful performance art that have wowed audiences at International Fringe festivals in her native Australia . In Part 1 of our conversation Marylou shares about her early Christian experiences including the challenges she had adapting to Evangelical Christian culture and working for the church.

Get Ready to Go Beyond the Pale with Marylou Verberne

Episode index:

1:03- Intro with Steve & Tam (Guest intro and holiday happenings)

19:00- Marylou begins her story

25:50 - Challenges adapting to church culture

33:20- Doing a “church” performance at a “fringe festival”

44:20 - When a church fires you

53:50- Foundational "cracks" within the modern church